my son answered the door this morning.
the couple that my mr.horton and i had been studying with when we were considering going back to the truth finally got ahold of him.
the did the usual routine.
Redhotchillipepper -
If I bring out The book by Ray Franz can I be DF'd. I wouldn't want that to happen
Yes you could be - and I did not realize you were still not DF'd when I made the suggestion. I am still not DF'd, but have considered this approach myself, just to get the final giggle on the way out.
Mea Culpa -
Jeff
a strong offense can make it possible to do things you should only be able to do with a defense - .
i think that is the strategy of the wtbts - they just keep moving the ball and keeping the other side (the sane ones) off balance.
they never feel inclined to 'defend' themselves since all the r&f will just swallow it all hook line and sinker - in short many like the show.
TrailBlazer -
I like the way you think!
GO COLTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
a strong offense can make it possible to do things you should only be able to do with a defense - .
i think that is the strategy of the wtbts - they just keep moving the ball and keeping the other side (the sane ones) off balance.
they never feel inclined to 'defend' themselves since all the r&f will just swallow it all hook line and sinker - in short many like the show.
Czar -
I do have to respect the Steelers, for sure. Most likely the road to 'show' will go thru Pitt - that said, watch out for Payton and 3 Targets -
And true enough - the D is getting better some weeks - but it looked sick on Sunday against Houston. Hope they have that behind them now....
When (and if) Indy faces off against Pittsburg - I'll have to take Indy by 3.
Jeff
i am having some conflicting feelings lately that i need some advice on.
i am starting to believe that the bible contradicts itself but at the same time i love jehovah and jesus and have hope for some form of eternal life.
that will never change but i have never believed in the bible 100% coming from god.
I suspect the same in the case of "God", and what He might choose to do or not do in any given situation.
Good point, Ross.
In any number of situations as presented in the Bible we could postulate that a better outcome could have been achieved if God had done this or done that - what would have happened if God had not let John the Baptist' head be removed?
I am not of the 'school of All things happen for a reason'. Perhaps some do, and some do not. But God may just allow the human race to race on - up to a point.
Jeff
i've been reading christopher hitchen's love poverty, and war.
it's a pretty good book that puts a lot of things in perspective regarding iraq, iran, pakistan...there's even a section on mother teresa.
this section...was probably the most interesting part of the whole book i have read so far.
When will belief cease to be an excuse to wash the hands of those who harm others or support policies that harm others?
Not in defense of Mother Theresa - I know little about her - but does the belief system of a person define him/her in terms of the effect of that belief? While it is true IMO that the RC Church's stand on contraception has perhaps not had a favorable result in some places - could it be truly stated that those policies have had much effect at all on the Indian Continent? Only a very few residents there practice the RC faith compared to the other non-christian faiths. Could it not be true that MT spent here life and energy there due to the oppresive conditions and a heart moved to try and use her life to aid others?
We could point to collective guilt on nearly any issue, and then try to lay it at the feet of an individual. Most of us could be said to be guilty of helping our neighbor get lung cancer - since we aided in the overall air pollution that is to blame for it, by driving a car. We might even drive that car in a helpful service to others, but it nonetheless makes us part of the collective belief system - a belief that we cannot get around without a car - and yet we would prob defend that belief and try and wash our hands of the blame for our neighbor's death.
I defend not the belief systems that cause harm directly to others at times - and that may be intensely subjective - but in this case can the belief system of MT be just what she believed - and not the source of great pain and suffering?
As LT put it - when we examine under a microscope we will always find hypocricy. The level of intention is at point I think.
Jeff
i know that many here would place jehovah's witnesses on a list of 'cults'.
personally i don't think they meet all the standard definition - but would class them as an 'authoritarian sectarian movement'.
at any rate, most of us would not want our neighbors to get caught up in the mind-twisting that we endured and from which we finally removed ourselves.. that said - have any engaged in successfull enterprises to counter the movement?
I know that many here would place Jehovah's witnesses on a list of 'cults'. Personally I don't think they meet all the standard definition - but would class them as an 'authoritarian sectarian movement'. At any rate, most of us would not want our neighbors to get caught up in the mind-twisting that we endured and from which we finally removed ourselves.
That said - have any engaged in successfull enterprises to counter the movement? Door to door canvassing or protests? How successfull were they and how long did you participate? What types of approached did you use, ect?
Jeff
i am having some conflicting feelings lately that i need some advice on.
i am starting to believe that the bible contradicts itself but at the same time i love jehovah and jesus and have hope for some form of eternal life.
that will never change but i have never believed in the bible 100% coming from god.
Booker-t -
This thread is going to get very long with all the questions that you propse here. I would just like to add my perspective on a single item in your agenda.
You stated;
The bible condemns "witchcraft" and all forms of sorcery and spiritism but Jehovah allowed his prophet Saul to go to the witch on Endor and she conjured up the spirit of Samuel(1 sam 28:15) was Jehovah condoning witchcraft for the moment and forgot about the old testament law?
I accept the Bible in all respects. I know that many will argue that point from a philisophical or alternate point of view - but that is not my point here.
In several of your points - not to be condemning - just pointing to the facts - there seems to be some level of unneccessary anxiety. In the account you mention above, I would respond that you seem to have somehow shifted the blame for Saul's misdeeds to Jehovah. Remember that by this point -and several years earlier - Jehovah had rejected Saul - and selected David to be king. Saul was not a 'prophet' of God, and there is no indication that God condoned his actions here. True, Jehovah did not strike Saul dead on the spot. But niether did he do so with the sins of others - Judah's whore mongering for example, or David's sin with Bathsheeba, or Aaron's making of an idol and presenting it to national worship.
In this account, Saul was already showing his animosity toward God's arrangement with David - even seeking to kill him - but certainly God did not condone that, did He? The record of events does not mean that God was to blame for all things that occured.
I think that several of your OT events could be looked at a little closer to see that God was not the blame for them, but did allow them to occur.
Just my opinion -
Jeff
my son answered the door this morning.
the couple that my mr.horton and i had been studying with when we were considering going back to the truth finally got ahold of him.
the did the usual routine.
It's time for a court order!
To me this sounds a little extreme. Remember these people think they are saving lives - that God has put them up to it. Sounds like your son has already stated that he doesn't want to be a witness, so why not let him tell them that?
If he rides on 'your conviction' there is no power there. In that case he is just being manipulated by you instead of them. You certainly have the right to 'direct' him. But I would think that to force the issue he might go the way you do not wish him to. Especially at this age.
Good opportunity to bond with a teenage son maybe. Spend quality time (not that you don't already, I am sure you do) and he will draw to you and away from the things you dislike, naturally. He is old enough to understand the reasons you have rejected the organization - so a nice long talk (calmly presented) about that will prob seal the deal. Then he will resist on his power - and his conviction -.
As for the local elders - try this - next time they come over, invite them in. Sit down and when they get nice and comfortable bring out one of Raymond Franz' books - hand it to the elder and ask him to read and give his opinion. They will run like a swamp-rat in a sewer fire. If not -and he actually reads it - maybe you will be the one to help another lost witness out of the Borg.
Just the thoughts or an old dad and grandpa - wish you well with this -
Jeff
i am having trouble dealing with this little voice in the back of my head telling me that if i don't go back to meetings i won't go to the new system and everything i am doing is wrong blah blah blah.
although i have agreed to a study i believe it is more to shut up this little voice rather than because i want to be a witness again.
but if i don't go back i have to deal with this horrible feeling all the time.
How long were you a witness confuzzed?
That is a common prob. with many that have been in a long time - or steeped in it since childhood. I was an active witness for 30 years - and it takes a toll. I, intelectually know, that the scenario you describe is not true, since I know from the facts that I have seen that Jw's cannot be the exclusive mouthpeice of God. But in my gut I still deal with what you describe - it has been sounded into my depths after decades of mind control
Remember, for witnesses there is almost no other source of information - we get sequestered and only read the witness propaganda. It has an impact. From what I see on this forum and in other places, you can get over that feeling of guilt and peril - but obviously many never can get it washed out of their hair entirely. Hence this forum, and many that have been out for years still need assurance that it is ok to let go of the fantasy.
Some go back - that is personal choice - but I could not, knowing what I know now.
Welcome to the forum.
Jeff
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041212/d86tr8sg1.html
report: jackson prints found on porn mags.
dec 11, 10:01 pm (et).
Many here have had problems with the judgemental mentality of the JWs; let's not fall into that trap ourselves. We may have neither the talent or money of Michael Jackson but also we have not had the same background; "there but for the grace of God go I"
well said Eye - it is easy to fall into that mentality again. Good reminder.
Jeff
